Esther Lunga and others - Oral History interview recorded on 31 March 2017 at Karmelboet, New Ireland Province, PNG

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Transcript:

[interviewer]
Welcome Aisoli's family. We will go through the interview.
We are now conducting the interview at Karmelboet village on Simberi Island on the 31st of April, 2017. We will be talking with Aisoli…late Aisoli's relatives. And I will ask them now to introduce themselves and we'll start from there.
[Esther Lunga]
My name is Esther Lunga, I am Aisoli Salin's niece.
[interviewer]
According to what you know about Aisoli, could you please tell us about what you know about him? About his personality and then we can late go to other things.
Question.
[Esther Lunga]
OK. When Aisoli came, I noticed that he was a good person. He stayed with us, his father's families at our house with all his sisters.
[Interviewer]
OK, could you tell us about his birth order in the family and about his siblings?
[Esther Lunga]
He had two brothers and a sister.
[Interviewer]
What was his order of birth?
[Esther Lunga]
In whose family?
[Interviewer]
Was he the eldest or second eldest child?
[Esther Lunga]
What was Aisoli Salin's birth order?
[Francesca Kote]
Just a correction. Aisoli Salin was the eldest child.
[Interviewer)]
Who was the next child?
[Francesca Kote]
His sister, Baso, was the next child.
[Interviewer]
Was it a boy after her? The brother.
[Francesca Kote]
Yes.
(Interviewer]
What is her name?
(Francesca Kote)
Bater.
[Interviewer]
How old were you when you first saw Salin?
[Esther Lunga]
I was young then.
[Interviewer]
So you were here during the war?
[Esther Lunga]
No. I was not born yet at that time.
[Interviewer]
So what did you hear about him when he returned as someone who had gone to study overseas?
[Esther Lunga]
I heard that he had gone to school when I was a child. He spent his time overseas until he grew into a young man before returning home.
[Interviewer]
Was he already working when you first saw him?
[Esther Lunga]
He was already working when he returned as a grown up man and married. I was here.
[Interviewer]
Junias, would you like to say something about what you know of your uncle?
[Junias Lunga]
My name is Junias Lunga. When my elder uncle came I saw that he was not too well. He told me stories as I was growing up. . He had left home when he was quite young, leaving behind his brother to go overseas. He was there until he had quite grown and then he returned home to be with his family.
Well, he stayed here, as he had told me, and something was about to happen which could have destroyed our village but he stopped that from happening. I think that's all I have to share.
Francesca, would you like to say something further to that?
[Francesca Kote]
OK, my name is Francesca Kote, I am Aisoli Salin's niece. Aisoli Salin spent his early childhood at Simberi island, that place where he was born. At that time I wasn't born yet until Aisoli went to school at Australia when he was about 15 years old and then he came back. Ah, he worked with the government at that time; it was a legislative government at the time-system- until he gained his teaching…um...where he ended up teaching at Madang and some parts of the Highlands of Papua New Guinea, until he came back home. I was born when Aisoli no longer was engaged with his work; he retired back and stayed at home.
After he first got married to his first wife and then second wife. At that time it was around the 80s and Aisoli was very old. Most of his time he spent with his family on Tatau island; his kids and his wife. And then at one time, his relatives went and brought him here to take care of him because he was very old. Aisoli Salin was a well English spoken person because he was educated in Australia and when he speaks English he's a real Australian English speaker. At this time I can remember I have never heard somebody who could speak English like Aisoli.
After I came back from school… my main interest was to talk with Aisoli Salin just to hear how he speaks English, and then I would ask him, ‘Tata' – in our mother tongue means ‘he's my nephew or uncle'. I would say to him, ‘Tata, let's tell some stories, I want you to speak in English,' and then he would say, ‘OK.' And I can remember one time, I asked him, ‘can you tell me your trip to Australia when you were just a kid? And how you got to socialise with these kids? You know they are different in colour, skin colour and then…and then he told me… he told me that he was a kid when his father brought him to Rabaul to put him on board the ship and he travelled to Australia on his own. When he arrived there, a couple waited for him. They took him to his…to their home and that's where he used to live and go to school. I asked him, ‘how did you…did you get nervous or? 'Some kind of …you not …from that society or you're different in colour skin?'
He would say, ‘just a little bit, not much because he had that …you know that instinct in him that… you know you want to get what those kids out there were in? He was really interested to…he wanted to …if they could write and if they could speak English then what's wrong with him? Maybe he can cope up with them so it took him about just a week. Yeah, he said it didn't take him long. It took him just a week to socialise with other kids because at daytime he would go to school and night time…maybe an hour the couple would give him another lesson. So that's how he caught up very fast, yeah, with the other kids. And …and after that he came back to Papua New Guinea where his life continued…he worked as a teacher and he was involved in other commitments too and then after that he told me a little bit about after the war. After the war when he was doing that diary… he was writing down the diary of what the Japanese did to the people and how they treated them; they were very cruel. If the Japanese comes around everybody must … in Japanese language they say ‘kere' to bow down and show respect.
So that's what the people would do. When they see a luluai and a Japanese coming everybody must bow down to show their respect. So Salin knew that his people on Tabar island were treated not like human beings by these Japanese. So he came to write his diary… what the Japanese did to them. At times he would go to work with the people. This luluai comes around, collect people from the communities, Salin would join in. He would go there just to observe what's going on. And then when he finds free time at night he'll do with his diary. Everything that they would do. If they whip somebody or tell these ladies to dance, they can dance starting from morning until evening. Yeah. If they come around and say, ‘you come.' Her husband has no….has no option to say, ‘No.' or what…the husband would just let her go. If the husband stops her, if the husband gives excuse then they'll take him up there to go and whip him on a box; a triangular box … long one and they'll lay that person on and when they whip him they'll pull out skins. All the skins. So Salin saw that this was not good so he kept on writing this diary and he was keeping it very, very secret; not even the neighbour houses knew what he was doing. His parents would complain to him saying, ‘you're going to bring trouble on us. What are you doing?' He'd tell them, ‘unless, nobody knows, we won't go into trouble. Only when I'm careless and if somebody finds out what I'm doing then we'll go into trouble. Otherwise, it's OK,' he would tell his parents. ‘It's OK'. So Aisoli was doing that work.
[Interviewer]
Did he tell you anything about that diary again where or who he gave the diary to?
[Francesca Kote]
No, I didn't ask him. He mentioned the names of those, Australian army maybe they were…give them to allied or… but I now regret that I should have copied down what he told me. Yeah.
At one time when information of him doing the diary reached these Australian allied forces maybe through Con Page, because he was working very closely with him so they came and took him at Simberi by a PT boat. OK, they got a red piece of cloth and they tied his eyes that he won't see where he was going, put him on that PT boat and then they travelled with him to Emirau Island, Mussau. When he was on the PT boat, two officers were at his side with guns because they were thinking that he might set a trap for them. Maybe he's doing this work to give some…give the Japanese a good ground to continue with the war. So the Australian allieds were… they did not trust what he was doing.
At that time there…which… Emirau island. They brought him to the commander …and they sat him on a chair on the opposite side facing this officer, this boss. And then they started questioning him …interviewing him…questioning Aisoli Salin about what he did, is it true that he wrote this diary and all that… And they asked lot of questions, he did answer until they were satisfied that what…his work was in favour of Australia- Australian allied forces. And then they released him. They untied the cloth and the officer asked him, ‘do you know me?' and he said. Yes.' I'm familiar with you.' And then they shook hands with Aisoli Salin and then the PT boat brought him back to Simberi again.
So he used to tell me that these PT boats were very, very fast. They were very, very fast boats at that time.
[Interviewer]
Did he tell you about his role in the Legislative Council in colonial New Guinea?
[Francesca Kote]
Yeah.
[Interviewer]
Could you share something about that?
[Francesca Kote]
He was …especially in the Department of Education to bring education into the country, so he used to work as a secretary to take minutes … at that time you know ..they had to…it's not like now, nowadays we have … so he told me that his role in the government brought him to be a teacher later on. So he was working there, he used to mentioned Sir Michael Somare that he worked with him at that time.. yeah.
[Interviewer]
Would you say that Aisoli Salin changed your life in any ways?
[Francesca Kote]
Yes. Now at these times…maybe…I used to think about Aisoli Salin that maybe it was God's plan to choose a little boy from a very, very remote area of the country to bring him up to become somebody who could … who will save the nation, his people from what the Japanese did to them at that time. Yeah, so I used to think back about Aisoli Salin that if it was not for him, maybe we would be slave for somebody. We would be working for somebody else and not for ourselves. Maybe nobody would recognise our rights as Papua New Guineans. Because of Aisoli Salin we are free. Yeah. My…his first cousin was my grand bubu, he used to tell me, he once was whipped on that box. Because he gave an excuse that my grandmother won't go out there to dance, she had to take care of a disabled boy whom they looked after.
So the Japanese took him to Pikinor and tied him on that box and they whipped him. He came back later that day with scars on his back. Yeah.
He was a first cousin of Aisoli Salin, Paul Solau. My grand bubu. So he too used to told me that they were afraid at that time that Salin was doing the diary. They used to live with, like they were scared that if they find out about what Aisoli is doing maybe all of us they'll…all of us they'll chop our necks off. For sure if they had found out that they'll get the entire family of Aisoli Salin and just kill them … so that's what the Japanese used to do. They'll come and get these ladies and tell them to dance starting in the morning until in the afternoon. They'll tell them, they must tie their laplaps very short, and were topless; nothing to cover their body and they'll just dance. If they like it or not, they'll have to do it. Yeah.
[Interviewer]
Thank you.
Do you have anything else to add on about his work if you've heard from sources and even from himself? I know he didn't tell you stories himself but if he told them through your parents or uncles and you heard the story.
[Elsa Telum]
My name is Elsa Telum. I am one of his nieces and the fourth born in the family. I will tell the story of the time he returned from Madang. I was a small girl then when he returned home and at that time he hosted a feast. At that time he was with his second wife; these are the children. He stayed here until he left for Tatau to teach.
I was young then and I went along with him to attend school at Tatau. I went to school with his children, Rachael and Rosie; I was also a babysitter for him. We stayed there until he finished teaching there when we returned.
I do not know about the other things he did.
[Interviewer]
You have not heard of other stories…?
[Elsa Telum]
I only heard of him going to school in Australia and his return. I was small then and did not know.
[Interviewer]
Did you hear any stories of his work with the government?
[Elsa Telum]
He started some things for the community but I was too young to understand any of that. I did not see his work relating to ‘cooperatives' which he initiated, I only heard of it. I did not know that such a thing would, I did not know. But it's a great challenge to our family to do such things that Aisoli Salin did, especially knowing that he became an historical figure.
He lived at Tatau until his passing and his burial's there which is his place. I think that's all from me.
[Interviewer]
Anything about Aisoli, your name sake, his work, his personality, yeah it would be good to just gather anything that you know about him, please.
[Aisoli Topu]
Thank you, my name is Aisoli Topu…. when Aisoli Salin finished from his public life and returned to Tabar, I was probably about five years old. I have been able to see him, but I was not able to communicate or tell stories with him because at that time our mothers would tell us not to run around in front of big people who came around. But I was able to complete my school at Simberi and went across to the mainland to do high school and continued on to teacher's college in the early eighties.
After that I went into primary school teaching. And I was in Madang, I was able to hear from people in Madang when they asked and found out that I was from New Ireland and they would ask, ‘do you know a man by the name of Aisoli Salin?' ‘Yeah, I know.'
‘He came and worked here before.' Probably in the fifties and sixties. And in the Highlands as well. When I went to teach in the Highlands, people would ask me about Aisoli Salin. Too, I think that they wanted to know if I was related to him or if I had known him. So to me when I travelled around the country doing my teaching work, people would ask me about Aisoli Salin. From there, I was able to understand that Aisoli Salin went around the country doing some work as a government officer or educationist, education person. I was able to pick up bits and pieces from other people too. When I studied at University of Papua New Guinea in my undergraduate studies, I did come across people who mentioned his name.
At one time Lamiller Pawut, and I had a deep discussion because Lamiller Pawut had better insights about Aisoli Salin's work and Lamiller Pawut was working in Port Moresby with the Department of Fisheries and I was also at the university as a student, and I picked up some of the histories about Aisoli Salin from Lamiller Pawut.
I was then able at that time …through Lamiller Pawut, I knew that Salin also went overseas. He was probably the first Tabar man who went down as a young guy. Probably the first New Irelander and the first Papua New Guinean to be going down to school in Melbourne in Victoria, Melbourne.
Ah that piece of information I got from Lamiller because Lamiller, like I said, they were …had a better knowledge about Aisoli Salin going to school overseas.
I also picked up from people that he, after completing his school, he came back to Papua New Guinea and worked as a teacher. OK. One part of his work as a teacher that I picked up was he opened the first school on Tatau Island at a place called Doboucha, it's close to Sos passage. …And that's where he was doing his teaching as well. And going along, I learnt also that he did some teaching work at Uutu, now known as Utu secondary school and I also learnt from people that Aisoli Salin was doing some work with … a newspaper company. I can't remember the dates but some of the bits and pieces I picked up along the way. What exact did he do in this company, I don't know maybe .. did he work as a journalist, that's a question to me.
Did he do some jobs interpreting information to English or from English or local vernacular … but that's one work he did.
OK but what Francesca Kote mentioned are also…we shared some information and time sharing stories about Salin, Francesca and I. And I picked up some information from Francesca about the diary. About the diary that he was writing. And I asked Francesca, do you have a copy of the diary that he was writing about?
I think most of the content about the diary was a description of what the Japanese were doing at …post war period. After 1945- coming towards fifties, sixties, and I picked up those bits and pieces.
But on the question of personality I…every time Salin arrives in his homeland here Salin has, commands a lot of respect here in the community. When he arrives, everyone gathered sat around him. So he is a man, in his personality he commanded respect; people would like to listen to what he says. They would sit around, and Salin was a man of peace, I think the part we hear about him as writing a diary…about what the Japanese doing which I think the work was going to report those to help the allied forces. Which the allied forces…the reason why they came here was so that Papua New Guinea was free.
And after the war Papua New Guinea was under the German administration which was headquartered in Kokopo, ah…in Rabaul. New Ireland at that time did not have any proper place. New Ireland was administered from Rabaul. And I think Salin had some contribution in that aspect which he would have been part and parcel of a team of Papua New Guineans doing some work for the government to slowly put in place and establish Legislative Council which would become the foundation on which the constitution of Papua New Guinea was going to be built.
Some of those bits and pieces I learnt from my courses at the university about PNG politics. But for some reason I really never hear his name ring loud. Tony Voutas was an Australian and a couple of other guys were working to put in place the legislation for a country or nation which was to be called Papua New Guinea, after independence. And so for me, if I can reflect on Aisoli Salin, his work saved my personality as well. I tried to emulate him because when he came around my parents would tell me, 'don't go around, he's a big man,' blah…blah…blah but I never understood. But after going to school and reflecting back I did come to realise that this is the man that has contributed to putting in place the foundation of this country.
He's an educationist and the work he did in putting information for the newspaper which would later be put out to educate people about what was happening around them and for me, personally, the example of Aisoli Salin gave me the courage to pursue my own education as well. I wanted to be like him so I must go to school. If Salin has …through education Salin has stepped on the soil of Australia it was because he was, he wanted to be educated there. For me I said, ‘I must be educated so I must see the world.' And I've actually, after going to school I was able to see the world because of my education. I travelled to many countries of the world and it gave me new outlook to life and now I'm back in the village I want to continue to do the kind of work that Aisoli Salin did to contribute to the growth and development in education in our community. That's the kind of work Salin did, to educate the people so I am doing my bit now as a retired government officer to help to continue the good work Salin did in education. And I am pleased also that I am his name sake, I'm pleased that his work has saved my life, especially though education. I continue to do the work of education and Francesca helps me. We have a little school over there, the elementary school. I'm the chairman, she's my secretary and we have an interest to develop education just like Salin did.
So our work now builds on from where he left. And I think that's the greatest thing we want to do in his memory and to show that we just want to make sure that education grows in this community. So finally, I'd say Salin's example has left a mark for us. This is the time for us to carry on with the work that he started and I'm very, very pleased about your team trying to put together a biography for him. That will be a good guide for many of us, if want to develop our community, we must use Salin's example as the light towards a path forward. To do the kind of work that he did. And his work brought peace to our society, his work educated many people here in New Ireland and elsewhere in the country and we look forward to continue to work to support this project. I personally can see that if this project is going to be completed, in our school we are going to use the book to plan our lessons around it, to help our students to see the value of the work of Aisoli Salin. And to encourage them to go to school and get educated. Because the development of the society, the key areas to develop first is education and I think any other aspects of development revolves around the education of a person. Thank you very much.
Thank you Aisoli. Now, from what we have read, William Groves was mentioned. From what you have heard, what type of person was he? According to what we have discovered from our reading, he was the one who helped Aisoli Salin go to Australia. What have you known about him from what you have heard? What was his job and what was William Groves and Aisoli Salin's relationship? Maybe you have heard some details of this from family members. Anyone from this group can respond to this.
[Bruno Leto]
I am going to respond to this. I knew of Groves's story when I first went to school with the New Guinea collection. Groves wrote a book mostly of events in the 1950s to 1960s. He wrote about his life in Tabar. It appears that Groves must have been a patrol officer traveling to Tatau, Simberi and Big Tabar. In his writing, he mentioned ‘blackbirding' where men were taken to work in Solomon Islands and Brisbane on sugarcane plantations. He also mentioned how malaria almost eliminated the entire population of Tatau and also here. And also how he assisted in solving. He mentioned very little information about being with Aisoli Salin and he also did not clearly indicate his relationship to Aisoli Salin. Groves did not write much about that in this book which I read in the PNG collections at the University of Papua New Guinea. Further to that, he did not clearly state how Groves assisted Salin. Maybe he identified him as a potential so he helped him to leave for schooling so at that time I wasn't too sure. However, I am sure of Groves working here as a patrol officer.
[Interviewer]
Did you hear anything else about William Groves?
[Elsa Telum]
He did not say much about that man to me because I was only asking him about the war time and this type of story. But nothing was mentioned about that man. I cannot remember.
[Interviewer]
I'm coming back to you Aisoli, about what you mentioned. Whenever elderly people came to the village, the mothers would say,' don't go close to them or that respect. Why do you think they respected him?
[Aisoli Topu]
Yes. I was a young child then but as I reflect now, it's about respect were we children were discouraged from making noise or play around the elders. So they usually tell us this, ‘you children sit quietly and listen.'
Our parents would usually say,' don't go and walk in front of him.' Then some would say, ‘that's true.' or maybe they made this up, ‘this man went to school in a different country and he usually gets upset easily.' That's what they told us to scare us to keep away from him so I was afraid that I would only sit down quietly from afar and stare at him.
[Interviewer]
OK, when you reflect now, do you think this was done because of his status as an educated person or as a chief?
I just want to know about that?
[Aisoli Topu]
Yes.
[Interviewer]
And can you say something about that, his status as a chief?
[Francesca Kote]
Our mothers showed a lot respect for him, perhaps because they witnessed his initiation where his father transferred certain roles to him as the eldest male child of the family. He took him to Tatau, his place, where this initiation was an indication of certain powers transferred to him by his father so that people can recognised this too especially his father's extended families.
That is why whenever he comes here, especially to his sisters and other relatives, he does not say, ‘I'm a respected person.' Whenever someone in the family needed to talk to him, they had to be polite and also do things properly. These things were instructed to us by our mothers. That respect to was due to him as a chief earned through his initiation.
[Interviewer]
Was his father also a chief?
[Francesca Kote]
Yes.
[Interviewer]
Paramount chief. OK.
There's also something we need clarification about. Explain Luluai Balat from Tatau to us. We found out about this in our readings so explain a bit to us about Luluai Balat in Tatau. Was he a chief?
[Aisoli Topu]
Luluai Balat was from and he was a chief.
[Interviewer]
Was he from Tatau?
[Aisoli Topu]
Yes, he was from Tatau but I think the colonial administrators gave him the position as a Luluai. This was what they were referred to then. Another colonial administrative position was called ‘wetpus.'
[Interviewer]
Wetpus is another name for Luluai.
[Aisoli Topu]
The names are just mean the same thing but I'm not sure what language it was. Whether it's the Tabar language, I'm not too sure about that but he was a Luluai too.
But in English what can we call them today? I mean in the present structure.
[Interviewer]
President or?
[Aisoli Topu]
Like a community president.
[Interviewer]
President as in for the community and not a prime minister.
[Aisoli Topu]
Yes, he was influential.
[Aisoli Topu]
Very influential. I suppose they had a full set uniform including shoes, trousers, shirt and different types of medals on their caps like medals of navy officers and pilots.
I only heard of Luluai Balat but did not see him myself.
[Interviewer]
Was he related to Aisoli Salin or not?
[Aisoli Topu]
Salin belonged to the Saramulis clan, Balat was from the Kuk clan.
[Interviewer]
Oh, so different clans.
[Aisoli Topu]
Different clans.
Balat is related to the ward member who had come with you, Balat was working and, I think, that's when he left for the mainland New Ireland, to a place called Putput, where he got married to a lady from this area. So he may have stayed with his children there.
So that's all I know but I did not see Balat except for Aisoli Salin and I can recall his face.
They both were related but I there was a question about their relationship to each other it's because they both are from Tabar. So being part of a society with common beliefs and tradition that would have been the basis of their relationship.
[Interviewer]
But they were from two different tribes.
[Aisoli Topu]
Absolutely.
[Interviewer]
And at that time Luluai Balat was a leader, at that time.
[Aisoli Topu]
He was a leader and Salin was a young boy growing up, I think, Yep.
[Interviewer]
Did you hear anything or any stories about the incident when he was lost at sea in 1952?
[Aisoli Topu]
No.
(he speaks in language to others about the question asked by the interviewer)
Speedboat.
OK, I think that could have been a time he was probably staying at the passage over there at Pinmida over at the planation. And there was a ferry that used to come and take copra here, taking it down to Kavieng. And it would have been that time.
I personally have not heard any information about that part of his life, he was not lost at sea.
[Interviewer]
OK, then you. Would someone here want to add a little more information about him before we finish?
You. Francesca anything to say again?
[Francesca Kote]
Both sisters usually tell me that Aisoli did not save any money in a bank. Whenever he went shopping for his family, it was a big shopping as if he were buying the entire shop.
He would buy different types of store food and fill the house; rice and all sorts of protein. Different types of food. What he did was when he cooked, he would invite his nieces and nephews, ‘you people come and eat.' But the children would say, ‘what types of food are these?' We don't want them. What do they taste like?'
Then he would respond to them saying 'it's not what you get from the fire or mumu. These are made out of good things and so they are good food. Come and eat. You must eat.' So that's what he said to his nieces and nephews.
I remember a poem he usually read about a pussy cat. Whenever he sings, the children would come and sit down to listen and he would sing to them, ‘Come and hear a story about the pussy cat.' The poem goes like this:
Pussy cat, pussy cat, where have you been?
I've been to London to look at the Queen.
Pussy cat, pussy cat what did you do there?
I frightened a little mouse under the chair.
And one of his poems, Salin's, he would read and call for the children.
But I also heard that he was a good cook. He usually cooked different food recipes.
[Interviewer]
Did you usually eat them too?
[Elsa Telum]
Whenever he cooked, he would tell us to come and eat but we would respond saying, ‘we do not know how to eat this food.' Then he would say, ‘do you think this food was prepared near the mumu pit? The white man prepared this food.'
[Interviewer]
So what was it like?
[Elsa Telum]
Just the same.
[Interviewer]
Was it tasty?
[Elsa Telum]
Yes, it was.
He roasted dogs too, He would roast them really well and share with one of his nephews.
[Interviewer]
OK, thank you so much. Do you still want to share anything else?
[Bruno Leto]
I just want to add a bit of information.
[Interviewer]
Tell us your name first please.
[Bruno Leto]
Bruno Leto.
OK, I just wanted to say this bit, that yesterday we were at Tatau and now we are here at his place of birth.
This is where his family tree originated from. Mavis married Marabok here and then later brought him to Simberi where he stayed there.
As you've already heard, Lavabak is where you will later go to and then you can get some stories from there. He was raised here and later taken to Tatau where he could be initiated. You have received stories of this already. So you will find that I most things started here.
[Interviewer]
Thank you, thank you very much, Bruno.
Thank you everybody for the information you have given.